Forum:Indoctrinated?
WARNING: SPOILERS for Evolution and Arrival So, I just have to ask opinions on this... after the revelations in Mass Effect Evolution and Arrival, does anyone else think that the Illusive Man might be Indoctrinated? We know Reaper artifacts cause Indoctrination from Arrival, and the Illusive Man was in close contact with the Monolith, which was most certainly Reaper tech, so the opportunity is certainly out there, and it could explain why Cerberus is after Shepard in ME3, regardless of ending, which appears to be the case. Because of his partial contact I think he's immune. Just my opinion though |RazeUser:Raze There is a strong chance but i find it strang that after TIM experience and information in indoctrination he did not test himself to b sure. He may be over-confedent but he still is intelligent--Ironreaper 06:44, May 25, 2011 (UTC) Saren was cautious about Indoctrination as well, and look how much it mattered for him. Indoctrination is a slow, insipid process. Maybe the invasion hit a fast-forward button. And is it just me, or must Shepard have an immunity to Indoctrination, with all the Reaper exposure he/she's suffered? Perhaps that is why the Reapers are so interested in Shepard... There is a difference between the slow indoctrination Saren experienced since it was slow and due to long contact with Soveriegn. TIM was exposed to the fast acting husk technology, making the issue of whether he was or not more appearent. Plus, Saren had little success in studying indoctrination and did not have as great amount of resources to work with, while TIM has shown to have studyed the process using Reaper tech and the resources of Cerberus, even using it for his own purposes. the differences are much more apparent. And indoctrination has shown no real relationship with distance. Grayson and the Collectors where controlled by the Reapers all the way from dark space, so why not use TIM if they could? his actions where hardly insignificant, as he stopped the Collectors work and put efforts to preparing Cerberus for the Reapers return. Regardless, TIM showed no signs of indoctrination before, so his willingness to test himself for indoctrination is not really in question.--Ironreaper 06:15, June 14, 2011 (UTC) Fair points, but take this theory into consideration. Why would Cerberus and TIM turn on Shepard in ME3, attempting to hinder and possibly kill the only individual capable of thwarting the Reapers' genocidal plans? What if, hypothetically, TIM decided that in addition to completing his own pro-human agendas, he could knock out a rivaling faction from the Reapers' list of thralls and make himself more worthy in the eyes of the ancient sentients? Remember that Saren had mentioned at times to be making attempts to appease the Reapers enough to surive the coming galactic massacre, that salvation was to be found through giving over to the synthetic titans and smoothing out their diabolical plots as they were performed. Just something to consider, that while TIM may not be initially under their control, he may still be hearing their subtle commands.--Kentasko 06:25, June 18, 2011 (UTC) Or how about this... he has been controlled by the Reapers from the beginning. I wouldn't put it past the Reapers to have multiple plans in place from the very start, which might actually come into conflict, as they might have had TIM put Shepard directly into harm's way with the intention that Shepard fall to the Collectors. However, Shepard was stronger than anyone anticipated, and managed to defeat the Collectors. Also, TIM's xenophobic agenda also helps to isolate the races of the galaxy, making it less likely for them to unite as one against the Reapers, making it easier for each to fall. Right . . . they put Shepard in harms way. Its not like Shepard had already DIED and WAS BROUGHT BACK TO LIFE because of Cerberus. Its not like they gave him an awesome new ship, a competent crew and allowed him to find a skilled team that would make sure he survived, all at TIM expense. Oh wait, that is exactly it! So if killing Shepard was the ultimate goal, why on Earth bring him back to life in the first place only so he can be killed again?--Ironreaper 23:27, June 19, 2011 (UTC) I'm playing ME2 again at the moment and for me it is becoming apparent that the Illusive Man is probably undergoing his indoctrination during the events of the game, after reviving Shepard. Perhaps the Reapers finally tracked down Shepard, after losing him in Redemption, only to find that their sleeper agent the Illusive Man had already rebuilt him. As a a result the Reapers get the Illusive Man to send the Normandy to Horizon, where the Collectors are about to attack. However as Shepard is already building his team he survives. The Illusive Man later deliberately sends Shepard to the Collector Ship, another attempt to hand him to the Collectors, which he explains away when confronted by Shepard. Even later actions, such as sending Shepard to a dormant Reaper, and to the Collector Base, (which he urges you to keep remember), could all be interpreted as attempts to destroy Shepard. Hell for all we know perhaps the Illusive Man rather than the Shadow Broker told Wilson to go rogue on Minuteman Station to catch Shepard then! Garhdo 01:29, June 20, 2011 (UTC) Perhaps The Illusive Man is not indoctrinated. It looks to me that he didn't turn against Shepard personally. Remember he's not doing the fighting himself. I'm thinking that an armed contingent of Cerberus didn't take proper precautions (do precautions even exist?) while studying Reaper technology so you are actually fighting rogue elements. --Raze85 14:00, June 20, 2011 (UTC) I it my theory that Cerberus is no longer under TIM's control. Else having him act so foolish or weak-willed is more character assassination then development. Also Cerberus controling the Collector base needs to have some effect on ME3 and i would rather this effect benefitted Shepard rather hindered him, if only so that Renagade players are rewarded for their actions. I have found that Renagade choice to be clearly skewed to not help you much and would prefer things to be more balenced. Paragons have more allies, but Renagades have bigger, better guns.--Ironreaper 15:34, June 20, 2011 (UTC) >> "So if killing Shepard was the ultimate goal, why on Earth bring him back to life in the first place only so he can be killed again?" What if the ultimate goal is not killing Shepard, but handing over a live Shepard? There are a few key pieces we are missing in the disposition of Cerberus. We do know that TIM was exposed to reaper tech long enough to show physical evidence of the change into a husk. Because of this, I don't think his choices are entirely altruistic or are even his own uninfluenced decisions. --The.Huntress 15:17, June 20, 2011 (UTC) His goals were never altruistic and i never indicated it was. He brought Shepard back to life because he wants to stop the Reapers, who will KILL HIM. TIM simply did not want to die. And he did not want all humans dead that too. And he did smell the posiblity of grabbing Reaper tech from the start. He never considered something as big as the Base, but he always pays Shepard for salvaged equipment. Garhdo - there has to be more effective and less needlessly convoluted plans for killing Shepard. Your plan means TIM hired a man working for a rival figure, with the intention to spy and possibly sabotage Cerberus, on purpose, with the express purpose of having him sabotage Cerberus equipment and kill Cerberus personel, in the hope that he will succeed in his primary plot of killing Shepard for the Shadow Broker, who wish revenge for Cerberus stealing Shepard's body from him when he tried to give it to the Collectors in the first place, because for some reason the goals of a rival are the same as TIM. Um . . . couldnt he just blow up the ship if he had second thoughts? If fact it specifcally states the station was blown up by remote after they left. Couldnt he ordered his much more efficant and skilled soldier Miranda to shoot the unconcious Shepard (who was still sleeping when the attack took place). or just have Kai Leng walk into the base and shoot him? You know, someone trained to kill, rather then some groucy scientist. Huntress - If he intended to turn Shepard over, why would he invest billions of credits giving Shepard a ship and crew? Why not let Miranda plant the chip in his brain if they wanted Shepard alive just to hand him over? Why would they waste billions bringing Shepard alive considering Harbinger had no intention letting Shepard live (finally a villan with a brain cell! Metaphorically speaking) "preserving Shepard's body if possible", "My attacks will tear you apart, Shepard." Yep, he's not taking any chances. --Ironreaper 17:10, June 20, 2011 (UTC) Whatever TIM's motives are, it has been confirmed that Cerberus is indeed HELPING the Reapers, namely by producing the monstrosities of melded together species into cannon fodder for the synthetics' objectives. The proof can be found in this walkthrough video at E3, at approximately 3:14.See Here. In addition, I'd like to speculate on another Cerb and TIM related scenario. The inert Reaper Shepard retrieves the IFF from; what if TIM had sent that team with the intent of having them husked? Just another notch on the devious belt of indoctrinated TIM (iTIM. heh).-- 20:14, July 2, 2011 (UTC) For starters I said that that the Wilson link was only a possibility, where as sending Shepard against the Collectors on three occasions, as well as wanting to preserve the base, seem to show Reaper indoctrination. I sincerely doubt, based on Miranda's dialogue in the game's opening that TIM could in any way convince her to kill Shepard. My opinion, as stated before is that TIM is probably not indoctrinated at the start of ME2, but at some point during Shepard's mission he seems to subtly turn on you, sending you into traps on Horizon and the Collector Ship.Garhdo 21:47, July 2, 2011 (UTC) Why wouldn't Miranda kill Shepard at the start? She has been a Cerberus agent for years and has probably done a lot worse. And if a man can convince you to work on bringing a man to life, despite nearly two years of no progress, im pretty sure thats going from a boss-worker relationship to a worship do-whatever-you-want-me-to relationship that Cerberus wants. Miranda didn't become TIM's favorite through looks. She murders Wilson in a second and lost no sleep over it. What, the male Shepard is so irresistable he charms women while in partial decomposion? He has been unconcious for two years! Miranda doesnt know him or have feelings for him. Sure she may have said she was important after the Battle of the Citadel but that was two years ago! Even she didnt want to be stuck with this dumb assignment of bringing a dead man to life. She was so annoyed by the end of it she probably would have gladly ended the job right then and there. She even makes clear that for all the importance she places on Shepard at the start, she doesnt find him all that important in person. If she truly believed that then she wouldnt have complained of the time, money and lives lost to bring Shepard to life in the first place. Sure she disobeys TIM at the end of the game, but at that point she knows and believes in Shepard, who is the best person to follow when the galaxy is on the line--Ironreaper 12:47, July 3, 2011 (UTC) And to 65.12.163.76, the video in question mentions that it is the REAPERS producing monstrocoties, which is more fitting as they having experimented in such things before (Husks, Collectors). How could you point this out and ignor all the Cerberus commandos your fight? Cerberus are involved principly in military ways, sending commandos to areas of the galaxy the Reapers havent reached yet and cannot reach in time.--Ironreaper 12:57, July 3, 2011 (UTC) WARNING : MAJOR SPOILERS AHEAD!! It turns out the Illusive man is truly indoctrinated. It is stated in the Art Of The Mass Effect Universe that the Illusive man has changed a lot since the last game and has nearly taken him over completely. Bioware's plan was to make Illusive man a mega husk but instead decided that it would be better for fans if the illusive man was killed by shepard as the human you knew him as and not just another mindless husk. He is now attached to machines to preventing him from becoming a complete husk and his face is partially mechanic now due to how bad the indoctrination has got.